How Much Does a Remodel Really Cost? Estimates vs. ‘Guesstimates’

Machine transcript of the full 72-minute episode, lightly cleaned; timestamps approximate. Speakers: Gino Mazzamuto, Mario Mazzamuto, and Marcos Amador.

[00:00] With three generations of experience dating back to 1960, the Mazamuto family has designed, built and managed tens of thousands of projects, earning a reputation as a top-rated contractor and placing in the top 5% of all licensed contractors in California. This show pulls back the curtain on construction, leadership and life, so you can avoid costly mistakes. Eliminate chaos and build with confidence at home and in business. This is where…

[00:28] and here are your hosts, Gina and Mario Mazemuto. – Welcome to the Mazemuto Method. I'm your host, Gina Mazemuto. – I'm Mario Mazemuto. – And today we have another special guest. He is our head of customer experience, Marcos Amador. – Is that your title, Marcos? – That is, no director.

[00:56] customer experience. The rest of customer experience. What does that mean? It means the customer walks away satisfying. There you go. Yeah, like it. Yeah. So we brought Marcos on because Marcos again is our director of customer experience. So he is kind of the first line that deals with customers when they call in. And his primary job is and I'll let him explain it more.

[01:24] is to basically determine, first of all, if the customers are right fit for the company and if the company is right fit for them. Because we don't want to take on every job because some jobs just don't fit into our slot. And we are very specific on the things that we do. And that's because of the fact that we want to make sure the things that we do, we do into 110%. So we don't jump around.

[01:52] through different things. We don't do a lot of specialized like outdoor stuff. We typically stick to home remodels, kitchen remodels, bathroom models. We do roofing, driveways, things like that. But, you know, we're not going to go out and patch like a one foot by one foot concrete driveway. It's just because it that is would be a better fit for like a handyman or something like that. And also people have to understand

[02:20] realistic budgets. So I think the one thing that you can really bring to this conversation today and what we should try to focus on in a discussion is what are those questions that you have with the customer when you're when you're first meeting with talking with them and then for Mario because Mario is our lead salesperson. He goes out and he meets with the customer so he has a lot of those same conversations but so Marcos is kind of the gatekeeper.

[02:48] the mile is the is the follow-up. But let's just start with what is what is probably the number one, two, and three questions that you get asked by homeowners. Um, basically the first question I'll get is how soon can you start? And that's the most common question I get from clients. Okay. And the second question I'll get is, is my job to I see?

[03:16] Your vans around I see your podcast and are you are we too small of a project for you? That's a second. That's the second common one I get and then the third one It barely comes up, but it price does come up every once in a while, but it's not the mate. That's not the major thing that that comes up I feel it's in in my experience that the number one question is how long is the job gonna take and to how much does the

[03:44] as a typical thing cost. And so I want to address those two things and we'll touch on the ones that you talked about too. First of all, I think the, when we set a kind of a barrier, so to speak, as far as having a pre, what do we call it? – Pre-assessment or set of call?

[04:12] pre-assessment call is that's important because contractors and homeowners are coming from two different perspectives and the homeowner is coming from a perspective of maybe they've done a remodel before most of the time they're reaching out having done no remodel before so they a lot of their questions come from talking to their family talking to the neighbors maybe watching

[04:40] some stuff online and things like that. And so trying to dispel a lot of things off the bat is important. One is, can you give me a ballpark figure? You know, that's probably another big one. There's one I thought a little bit about that. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's important to talk about. I like to try to get it right out of the gate, like right away when when I'm talking.

[05:08] with clients. People probably ask you over the phone, right? It's a little harder for you, you haven't seen the space yet. So for me, when I get to the space and I get to see it, it is one of the things that I threw out right away, because I just want to cut right to the chase. Because we, we have between you and I, we feel a lot of, a lot of phone calls and a lot of appointments, you know, I'm seeing like, sometimes it doesn't appointments a week. You're probably fielding more than doesn't.

[05:36] and phone calls a week. And so we have to kind of try to get right to the point, not the waste customers time, but the waste our time. And so, you know, it is, right, I tell people right out of the gate, you know, if you're dealing with a bathroom remodel, you should budget somewhere between the ballpark of 25,000 and 50,000. It could be more, could be less, but that's what you should be budgeting. And you find people are sometimes shocked by the. Oh, yeah. I've gotten so used to.

[06:04] to it. Like the I think that's why I like to go straight to it because you just got to get the shock out of the way. And I think everybody is shocked because mostly we're used to, I did a remodel like a couple of years ago. And it's like, how long was a couple of years ago? Like 10 years ago, costy everything's gone up since then. And so it's like, it's like, we're our pricing is only a reflection of the overall economy. And

[06:32] It's material plus labor and those things in combination and insurance costs and everything else and all those things have gone up And so that's all our cost is it's just all these things added up and and I think that's a good place to kind of build off Because there's a lot we can unpack just in the that one topic that one question and Everything you said is a hundred percent. We're just going off of what the economy is right and so

[07:00] to build off of that point, we also have to talk about how do we get to those numbers, because you're just talking about a ballpark number. – Harbor check. – So that's a generalized number. And the reason that's generalized is because you can go in and you could take out a shower and turn it into a bathtub and do that kind of stuff and maybe change the flooring. And in that, you're probably looking at a typical shower replacement is anywhere from 10 to– (buzzer)

[07:28] $15,000 if you're waterproofing everything and doing a custom tile pan with a niche and then the glass enclosure and all that kind of stuff. So when you're giving a ballpark, it's a ballpark because you don't have definite range of what all they want to do, right? Because you could be moving a window, you could be rewiring the whole bathroom, new can lights, new exhaust fan.

[07:56] running a whole new circuits back to the breaker box because the house is old. So there's a lot of variance in there. I think the next important thing to build off that is, is when you, from that ballpark number, how do you actually get to what they call it, an estimate? And I think this is one of the big things that I spend most of my time discussing.

[08:24] why it's something that's on the forefront of my mind is because when I, because I'm the chief estimator and I'm putting the estimates together, I have to explain to homeowners what the difference is between an estimate and an actual quote, right? So like for us, we say, our is not ours is not an estimate because an estimate is in what's in the name, right? It's a quote. It's a

[08:52] an idea of a lot of things. So one of the things that most contractors do is they'll walk in and they'll say, okay, you want to take that tub out, you want to put a shower in, you want to take up your floor, you want to put tile down, you want to new vanity, you want electrical. And he's going to go back to his office and he's going to sit down on his desk and he's going to go, okay, well, the last job I did, it probably took me about.

[09:20] you know, half a week to do the demo and then a week to frame out and then, you know, a few days for electrical. But he's he's he's averaging these things out based on it's right what he's done and trying to fit that job into a scope of work that he's done before. So he has something to base it off right. Right. But the thing is everything's not a one for one. He can't go this took me this long. So this is going to take me exactly this long.

[09:48] This could be this long and this is slightly different because it has these different variables. So it should be roughly around this thing. So he's doing that for every single thing, electrical plumbing, framing, et cetera sheet rock. And then he has to figure out the material. So he's gonna say, okay, I have so much, I have so many two by fours, I have a switch, I have this. Most contractors are not gonna go online.

[10:16] and put up in everything that they want and try to price those things out. Right. They're going to ballpark those things. I'd probably have $500 in wood. I probably have $1,500 in electrical material, et cetera, et cetera. So at the end of it, what you have is what I've kind of coined is a guest of it. And I think that's, it's a very, it's a very accurate description because he's guessing at things and then he's trying to put it.

[10:44] paper and then he's handing that piece of paper to somebody and the thing is that piece of paper you most what is the the number one thing that most people like if you like the nomenclature of construction it's like you should always get three estimates for some reason three estimates have always been the kind of thing you don't get two three three right and that's and that's fine but the point of it is is that when you're putting

[11:12] those estimates together and you have those three estimates, you can't look at them as all those things being equal, right? Because of all the things that I've said. So how do they, how do they come to that number? And I know, uh, I'm taking up a lot of the air in this room with this conversation, but it's because this is, this is something that, uh, that I've had to explain over and over again. So I kind of want to get it down on tape. Just, just so it's, it's out there. I think this is one.

[11:40] the biggest, the biggest thing. So we talked about how other contractors get to that, that number. So what now I want to talk about how we get to that number, because this is where the customer education part comes in. How do we, what difference each estimate from another estimate? And this is what homeowners need to know, because when you, when you present an estimate, and they're going to say, well,

[12:08] this guy came in typically, first of all, those three estimates, you're probably going to have a variance of somewhere between 5,000 and maybe 20,000 between each estimate. Yeah, it's probably like 10 to 25% for sure. Right. Amongst amongst those three, right? Yeah. And so the old ad is that goes along with getting three estimates is don't ever pick the lowest one. And don't know where the eyes go right in the middle. Pick the middle one. Now that.

[12:36] That's like, you know, dolle locks, you know, type of thing or whatever, you know, the, the porridge situation, not the hot, not the cold. Exactly. But the truth is, is that is a misleading statement? Because just because one's middle doesn't mean the other two are wrong or the, and that one's right. So what I have in my hand is one of our, is one of our take offs.

[13:04] That's what we name it. And that's because when Maru goes out to a job, what he does is he 3D scans the room. So first of all, we start off with a basis of what that room looks like. And then once you go ahead and take it from there, give me a break. And then you could talk about the process between you and the designer and how that whole thing works. Sure. Back to this. Sure. Yeah. So Ali was starting even further back is when Marcus contacts the client right out of the gate to make sure that

[13:32] that they're a good fit for us and we're a good fit for them. And it sounds like a project we want to take on. Yeah. So basically my process is I take the call, I identify what the client's pain points are. And I just sit there and listen and just take notes. I find out basically if they've ever experienced any type of construction before, if this is the first time. And then I walk them through the process, even they don't know at times what they want. So we have to.

[14:00] We have to uncover together as a team and that's what I explained to them as well. So I also try to get them to understand that even though we're doing a remodel, we have to decide in that remodel if there's permits needed for this. So and I educate them on why I asked this question is because if we're moving plumbing from one side of the room to the

[14:28] other moving locations of electrical, that's going to require a permit, which is going to require, we don't know if it's going to of course require an architect. And there's other players that get involved. And that dictates pricing as well. So once I've determined that, and then I put all the notes in, identify what the customers needs are, if they have any pictures or an idea of what they think that

[14:56] that they want the house, their remodel to look like. I take that information as well, educate them on what we are. We aren't only a construction company. We're basically a design build, which means to them is we have a showroom that you can come to. We have designers that you can pick that can help you choose and make your vision come true. – Yeah, that's a big part in what I wanted to model to kind of (buzzer buzzes)

[15:24] explain is so picking up where he left off with the designer, you walk into a customer's house, you scan it, but then we talk about the design process. You want to walk us through it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I scan it just so we have the basis to do the estimate. We get square footage, we get linear feet, we get, you know, a volume, all that sort of stuff. Take a video of the space for all my notations and for the team, for your guys, your guys is estimating team. You guys have a walkthrough video. I expect.

[15:52] what it is that the customer wants to do. But in that, I will recommend for the majority of projects that we bring one of our designers and if the customer has a designer they want to use that's fine but we offer designers ourselves as well. They're subcontractors but we recommend them because the designers basically help them cut to the chase and I'll sidetrack a little tiny bit because on average I've met with a lot of

[16:20] different customers and some customers go, we spent the last year figuring this out and I go, well, how'd you call this before? A designer could have gotten to where it took you a year and probably one to two weeks and a careful conversation. And I think that's a good deviation and we'll get back to the main, but that point that what you said, I've just this week, I've dealt with with two clients like that and right and and

[16:48] I'm not saying that they're wrong. They just don't know. But the thing is, is that customers when when they hire somebody to do a job and I use the kind of McDonald's adage, because I think it simplifies what we're trying to talk about is you don't go to McDonald's and say to them, well, I know how you guys build your hamburger and you want me to order it now. But let me go walk around in the back and let me see how you make the bread. And then I'm going to tell you hire one.

[17:16] you to make that hamburger, right? And then I want you to kind of tell me what's involved and then I'll come back and decide if I want, like, because what happens is they think they're protecting themselves because I think the point that most people do is they go, well, let me get a ballpark figure on what this job is going to cost before I commit to hiring a designer and going through this process and doing all that. The problem is, is that.

[17:44] you're basically going down a rabbit hole when you start it that way because your goal is to try to obtain a price so you can figure out if you can afford it and and how much it's going to cost to make your decision to move forward. The problem is, is that you're never going to get an accurate price until you follow the process because we can give you an estimate like this and this is based off a linear foot squish

[18:12] where footage and other things which I'll talk about more. But the, even when you get an accurate take off for your job, you're still left with how much is the towel going to cost? How much do I have in fixtures? How much do I have in appliances? What are the cabinets going to cost? What are the countertops going to cost? Do I do it? Is this wall load bearing? And if so, what is the engineering going to cost?

[18:40] doing on that. So you're going, well, let me get an idea. And then we'll go back and do it. And then what happens is, is that we're trying to put all these numbers together. And then they go, well, it's still not quite clear to me how much it all costs. But that's the point is you can never get total clarity unless you follow the process. You got to follow. How you do it. So typically a design fee for like a kitchen is probably

[19:08] you know, if you're like changing the layout and doing all that kind of stuff is you're probably looking at about $35 to $4,500. Okay. Right. Now if you're 100 or not, 1000, huh? 3500. Yeah. You, you said it right. I just wanted to clarify it. I want people to put 35,000 models. You're probably going to be in the $100,000 range. So it's a small percentage investment on what you're going to, what you're going to pay. Right. Right.

[19:36] But the thing is once you do that, you're paying somebody to figure out the layout, figure out your materials, figure out the material costs, figure out all the things that you need to know. So then what we do is we can take that design input and go, okay, based on the designer, you want to move the canvas over here. We need this much length of plumbing. We need this much wiring. We're going to install 16 can lights.

[20:04] because in our takeoffs, we actually, if you looked at these and we might throw one of the, just a quick image on the screen so you can see how detailed these are, but this take off has 286 light items in it. Okay, this is 20, 26 pages long. And so when I say an estimate, an or a guesstimate, which I'm trademarking, that's my trademark guesstimate, is that they're giving (buzzer)

[20:32] or ballpark number. This actually has 286 line items in it. And those are based off of linear footage, square footage, cubic yards. And so when we get the design back from the designer, we can look at Mario's original scan. So we have the original placement and then know where the new locations are at and then go based on this, because we use a take off system called square

[21:00] take off, which is basically we plug in our, um, we're tied into our, um, vendors. So we know how much a two by four costs, how much a, a roll of wire costs, even down to a box of electrical staples. Um, and then we also know what our cost is to, to do things like demo. So when we do a linear foot demo for cabinets, we know historically how much

[21:28] that costs us to do it per linear foot. And that's based off of the data that we accumulate using our software, Build-a-Trans software, which is when the guy clocks in on the job and he clocks in under demo, we know how long it took him to demo that because he's clocking in under that. So we know it took him two hours to demo that kitchen that kitchen was at 16 linear feet of…

[21:56] of candidates in it. So we can take that and basically plug that into our square takeoff. And then we do that for every step of the trade. So not only do we have accurate labor costs, and we even have like one of the first line items that we have in here is garbage and debris. So we know how much cubic yards of garbage we're going to capture.

[22:24] which means we know what the dump fees are going to be generally and things like that. Point being is that because now we have a clear, concise direction from the designer of how the final thing is going to be and everything that's in it, now we know exactly how to build it. So with these 286 line items, now we have, I mean, there's things in here like, that's all, it was just three quarter inch.

[22:52] by three-quarter inch by half inch copper pressure all cup reducing T fitting and we have quantities with those We have things like half inch copper type L pipe so we have we know how many feet of copper pipe we're gonna need even down to the three-quarter inch 24 gauge copper pipe hanging straps so so even the strap to hang the copper pipe is in here and we know how many straps we need because we know we

[23:20] put so many feet and we know how many feet we're going to run. So, and then, and so then you take that and then you take the fact that we can, that from that designer, now we have your material list. So we know how much niche tile you need, how much wall tile, how much shower floor tile, all these things. And so in here, you have every piece of material that you were going to need.

[23:48] all your finished material, light fixtures, your mirrors, your sinks, your faucets. So I can say to you, this is how much the job is gonna cost, your construction material, neighbor. Here's your finished material. And then we have permit ready plans that we can take down to the city because we have lighting layouts, we have plumbing layouts, we have heights and elevations. And another big thing.

[24:16] Then we can take this to the Enfield team and go here. This is how you install it. On here it shows where the height of the mirror is, where the height of the lighting is. On this one there's Wainscoding. So where does that Wainscoding go to? Everything from the height of the diverter valve in the shower to the height of the shower. Everything is clear and concise.

[24:44] So the guys in the field aren't calling the project manager or asking the homeowner, "Where do you want this?" Everything is already prefigured. – And I think that's a big distinction in the way that we do things versus even the way we used to do them. 'Cause we used to not do them like this, exactly. We used to have to call the customer, "Hey, we need to meet on site "so we can hang your mirrors for you." We need to meet on site so we can hang your towel bars for you. We're gonna do light placement today. We need to have a meeting on site about that.

[25:12] we cut down all those meetings with this design. It's all figured out up front. – Exactly, and the designers is helping you pick out all the materials in our showroom. So you're able, you don't have to go run to floor and decor or run to Home Depot or run to Lowe's or whatever you're trying to do to the source, all this stuff that designers bring in that all to you. And one of the biggest feedbacks that we've gotten when (buzzer buzzes)

[25:40] we built this whole process is those big box stores are great, but they're overwhelming. For a customer that goes in and has to pick out shower tile and you're looking at different shower tiles, no, that's not shower tile. That's wall tile because that's polished. You can't put it on the floor. That's porcelain. You know, whatever, whatever the thing is that's laser printed, you know, all the differences, they have like they're learning a whole thing where you just go to the design.

[26:08] or this is what you should use. You're looking, you know, because the designer, you're going to show, you're going to typically people have Pinterest stuff and something you can show the designer to kind of get them the ball rolling, then the designer just takes it from there. But the point being is that when you're that small investment of $3,500, typically on a kitchen designer fee, now you have everything.

[26:36] – All your questions haven't answered. – And you're dealing with somebody who knows their stuff. This is why you don't use porcelain here and why you want to use granite. This is why you don't want to use marble, you want to use this. We just were out of the appointment today and the customer's like, "I want LVP floors in the bathroom." Jackie was our designer on this one and Jackie and I both said, "Well, these are reasons that you might not want LVP 'cause you're, there's an elderly lady."

[27:04] who was possibly having trouble getting in and out. A lot of water is going to be out there. And these are the reasons why you probably don't want to put LVP in. But so a lot of that is what you're paying somebody for ultimately is a lot of it is their knowledge. Because that's why I brought up the fact that customers go, we've spent the whole year like designing all the stuff. And here it is. And then we look at it, we go, this may not be as thorough as you think it is.

[27:32] Because like you're trying to learn a new language that we already know how to speak and that the designer already knows how to speak and so we can cut to that chase so much faster and we can get to that same result or even better results so much faster because we've done it thousands of times and this is part of what the conversations that you have with clients up front is as well as explaining this whole process right because for clients it's different yeah

[28:00] They're pretty, some of them are pretty knowledgeable, just, you know, because they, husband may have worked a little and tinkered a little bit in the bathroom from time to time, but most of the time, they don't know what the process is like. And my job is to bring that ease, bring them at ease so they can feel comfortable with the process. And, you know, setting expectations of what to expect during the

[28:28] And I think the other big thing is the psychological and mental side of this, because what we're talking about and what most customers focus on, again, in my experience, is time frame and cost. Okay. Those are valid. Those are valid concerns, which, by the way, when we put our take off together, we already have a, um, an estimate of what is what the timeframe is going to be. And when we start.

[28:56] the job before we start the job. I'm sorry. We actually build a line by line schedule so you can see from the start to the end and everything in between. So there's no kind of guesswork. But the psychological and emotional side is very important because I think that it's one of the things that don't really get brought up. One of the first of all, one of the big things is when homeowners try to do all this themselves and try to learn this.

[29:24] I equate it to me like trying to learn how to pull it and replace an engine. I'm not a mechanic. So that means I have to learn all these things, go through the trial and error, figure out my mistakes, and then at the end of it, I'm probably going to end up having to bring it to somebody to fix it anyways, because I'm not, you know, I'm not that great at it. So when you have a customer, I would say 50 to 60% of the customers when that (buzzer)

[29:52] I go, "How long have you been thinking about this?" Two years, two plus years. And that strain on them, because they're constantly in the like, "Well, I don't know how much to do the cost, so I don't want to move forward." And then I go and I kind of dabble in this, and then I get kind of worn out by it, so I take a break, and I come back to it. Getting this kind of clarity, you go like, "Now you're actually making traction, right? You're not just spinning your wheels and going, "What if, what if, what if, what if." That's a–

[30:20] big, big thing because now you're actually can see the process and see yourself moving forward instead of always having these questions. And it gets exhausting. I mean, the mental load that you have just constantly thinking about these things becomes exhausting. Yeah, not only that, and that's just before you even start. Then if you take the wrong pathway, you know, most contractors are going to again, they're going to have you sign a quote.

[30:48] From them that's gonna say your bathroom and model is 35,000 Then you still got to meet them after work somewhere so they can take you shopping the pick out material You got to figure all that kind of stuff out and basically now you're becoming the logistic manager for all these things Which by the way we take care of as well we order from that material list that we that we accumulate now we give you the price we order all this stuff for you So you don't have to track it if it comes in damage we take care of all that kind of

[31:16] stuff. You don't you don't a lot of that. Oh, yeah. Markers is done a lot of order. A lot of communication with clients. Yeah, a lot of community and a lot of tracking of all these items. And how exhausting is it from the client's perspective? When they're asked to do these things, like they don't want to do these things. And you're you're having to chase them down to do it. And so the problem is is that they're going they're getting off of work. They have to go meet.

[31:44] somewhere, somebody at some place so they can pick these things out, then they got to pay for it, then it gets shipped to their house and then they got to– – If they're not working with a designer. – Exactly, that's my point. – Yeah, so– – Because we've done it like that before. – Yeah, so if you were our mentioning how we started in the beginning, that was when we, right before we merged. So yeah, it was a little bit difficult in the beginning for the client and then, you know, as we–

[32:12] – We progressed. – And we didn't wake up to this and just go like this is the process that we have. These things come from years and years of experience and more importantly, mistakes. – Trial and error. – Because the thing is what we saw was what are the pain points that people have not only for the customer, but for ourselves. Just like customers have emotions, contractors have emotions too.

[32:40] And contractors get burnt out and one of the biggest burnouts that contractors have is dealing with clients, unfortunately. And that's because they're asked to do so many different things. Yeah, you're asked to be an expert in so many things. So what I've noticed through my experience, I think their frustration would ever become their homeowner, the homeowner would they're emotionally vested in this. Of course. The money they've made all the money.

[33:08] money they're investing in their property. They live in this property. They share their, their family memories in this property. So the thinking that you're saying that they've done, they had this vision of what they think that this is going to look like and maybe change from time to time. It could be stressful for them. Of course. And, uh, even the, again, from the money side of it as well, they're, they're, they're investing so much of their finances and their, their,

[33:36] vision into it is just it takes its taxing over time. Two things I want to say to that is one, I have a Norman Walkwell magazine cover in my office and it's called the Painters of the Luma from 1956. And basically what it shows as a painter with his head in his hand, just frustrated with a housewife and there's paint colors all over the wall. And the reason I bring that up is because even

[34:04] something as simple as paint, which you think is like the least of the concerns of what you have to think about when you think about a home road is probably one of the bigger things that customers have the hardest time choosing. And and and thus why they need a designer why they need because they go, Oh, I just want white and you go this is like about 10,000 different variations of white, which white do you want? Oh my God, I don't know. Well, if you had asked a designer.

[34:32] designer would be like, okay, based on what I know about you and based on your style that you've already shown me, I think you're either going to fit for frost, for, you know, swiss coffee or polar white. And I would choose between those three. And that's what you're paying a designer for their knowledge. It takes the stress off of the line to make the choice of the paint colors of all the whites. Oh, and you have to pick the sheen. Yeah. So I mean, it's like,

[35:00] – Oh my God, what's the difference between Matt, semi-gloss? Oh, I don't know. And the other thing that you brought up, which is a good point, is the financial side. The experience that we've tried to build here is a tailored experience for the best customer satisfaction through the whole thing. Just like I've mentioned in pre-

[35:28] previous podcasts, I don't care how great the product is, if the experience sucked, that's all you're going to remember. But to that point, when I mentioned that a Kitchering model can be 100,000 plus, you know, what do you equate that to? And I think to myself, when customers go into like a, you know, a cabinet store or something like that, they want to purchase cabinets.

[35:56] Candidates are a big part of the part of the cost of the remodel. I mean, you can, you can spend 15,000, you can spend 80,000 and plus and up just on cabinets. But when the customer goes and sits down with the cabinet vendor, you know, they're sitting across a desk from somebody and there's, they're probably in a room with other people sitting at desk and having conversations and, and they're, they're trying to get their point across of what they want. And the customer

[36:24] the person's putting the rendering together and then they're going, well, here's your cabinets and you're gonna do this and you're gonna have molding up here and you're gonna do this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And oh, by the way, there's a cell on today. So if you buy it today, we'll save you, which is (static)

[36:40] mostly B.S. I mean, you know, that's just a line that people tell you. But the fact of is you're spending the cost of a high-end car, you know, $50,000, $60,000 plus, and the experience sucks. And you're feeling pressured and they don't want to release the schematics to you because they're trying to hold that over you so you give them money.

[37:08] So what I decided and what we all decided was when we transformed this company into what it is now, we wanted that to be a premium experience for everybody because you're going to be spending this amount of money. It should be like when you walk into a Lexus dealer or a BMW dealer, it's different than you go into a used car shop, you're going to get a different experience. And so why shouldn't you have that same experience?

[37:36] with your construction, with the thing that impacts your home, impacts your money, impacts your lifestyle, and it impacts everything. So why shouldn't, but the problem is, is that we've, as a society and as a, as a, as a, you know, in construction, we've gone away from that. Now it's like, you know, you got to do this thing. Now you got to do this thing. Now you got to do this thing. Now, you know, transactional. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely try this.

[38:04] slow that process down and make it more. I mean, we put a lot of emphasis into put a lot of work into all of us have, you know, and like, like, like, it's like a client experience now. And, you know, it was with building out the showroom and all that, we've put a lot of emphasis into the client experience. And, and at the end of the day, like, the cool thing about what we've done is we don't even have to sell. We're just present, presenting them with stuff. We're just

[38:32] because we're giving them so much value. And so once they see the value that they're getting, they're like, oh, I think to add to that is value is huge. And that value is communication and setting expectations of what it's going to look like. And once the client understands what that is, no matter how long that the project takes, once they understand they're going to get.

[39:00] here in 15 weeks and you can make that deadline, they're willing to go for the ride. – Yeah, and to both of your points is that we don't have to sell because what we're showing is you can have this experience or you can have this experience. What experience do you want to have? Do you want to have the experience where the number comes in low?

[39:28] You accept the bid and then there's change orders. The guy, you can't get the guy on the phone. You don't know when he's going to show up. You got guys showing up at your house at eight o'clock and you didn't know they were going to be there the next day. You got all these different things that are just happening and you don't really have a roadmap. Or do you want clear and concise process, clear and concise numbers, people. And this goes to, you know, with the.

[39:56] with the things we're talking about like three estimates and pick the middle one. You know, there's other things other adages that you could that are promoted throughout the industry. And the other one is that you have to, when you're building stuff, you have to accept a certain way that it is because this is just the way that the industry is.

[40:24] not. There's big differences and you just got to know what they are. So it's doing your research and again that's why I started off talking about the estimate is that when you have estimates and there are thousands of dollars difference, going with the middle one is not solving a problem. You have to go, how is that structured? Because I can get

[40:52] you throughout three numbers doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean anything. Well, there's no, there's no science that I'm going to, and I'll actually use an appraisal analogy because I'm a licensed real estate appraiser and done it for a long time. And that's like choosing the median is what you would call that. It's almost like an average. And, you know, that's, it's kind of like one of those things. I was like, if you take a test and it's like multiple choice, the, like, the, the, the.

[41:20] most probable answer is it could be C. It's kind of like that same adage. So but there's no art or science at all behind that. And so ultimately, what you have to do is you have to, and then what this is very difficult to do is how the somebody who doesn't know what they're taught doing and what they're looking at, how do they compare it to see if they're comparing apples to apples. And that's why we tell most clients, hey, we're happy to actually help you compare somebody else's estimate to art.

[41:48] Bring it with you. Let us compare it so we can look at the line items we can explain to you what the differences are and what the similarities are right? Yeah, because that's the only way to really freakin know because you have to full-blown know exactly what you're talking about. So I brought this list of commonly asked questions. So one of the things

[42:16] is what's the biggest red flag you hear about from someone who already got burned by another contractor before they called us. I haven't gotten that. Well, I'll tell you. So the biggest red flag that what people say like when they're about a contractor. Yeah, well, I would say that what we deal with is the the the kind of the name of a

[42:44] contractor is kind of like you talked about, it's kind of like a mechanic, right? It's like when you hear the word mechanic, it could mean various different things. It could mean some guy that just calls himself a mechanic and he wrenches on cars and doesn't know the first thing about it. And it versus a guy who's highly, highly skilled and has a certain certification and level and he's like a master mechanic. And so the same thing goes with

[43:12] contractors is that everybody just assumes all contractors are almost created equal. And people get burned, unfortunately, because people call themselves a contractor. Like you said, like they throw a box on the back of the truck and call themselves a contractor. And it's they have that fear of, well, somebody promised me something. They act like it's no big deal. Yes, no problem. Oh, yeah, I got somebody for this. And then they just they get burned and whether it be

[43:40] that they say they can do it for $10,000 and ends up costing $30. Well, that and so the question was what is the biggest red flag you hear about from somebody who already got burned by another contractor? So the thing is most people that get burned by contractors, there's indications before that happens and so that's the red flag. So I say the red flag is they're pushy, they're trying to sell you their their

[44:08] They come in, they go, "Well, we can do this, we can do this, and you should do this." And they can start right away. – Yeah, they can start right away. – Oh yeah, I can start next week. – They just go out of price, and they go, "Oh, I can do it for $35,000." – Yeah, they'll be somebody else's price. – Those are all big, big, big, big, big, big, big, red flags. – One is, I think, something that dad used to crack me up when he would say is, "These guys walk in, I see these guys."

[44:36] going in Home Depot and they're covered in paint and they're their butts hanging out of their pants and they got rit holes in there. They go, you're going to let this guy come in in your house and we work. And so that's another red flag. Yeah. How are they presenting themselves? You just shoveled? Is there a truck loaded with paperwork along the cash? He has a drug problem and he just is trying to close the sale so he can go get loaded. Yeah. So the unfortunately, that is true. Is that?

[45:04] You have to rely a lot on your instinct. If you got a bad feeling about somebody, it probably is. So that's why it's so important when you do, if you're investing this much money on a project, you have to go to resources that you rely on and well, it just referrals. Okay. So that's a good point. So reputation matters. You talk to a lot of people and you ask them every single time, how do you hear?

[45:32] about us. They looked up. They looked our name up on chat GPT. They found that were very well known, got a good reputation. Rants and raves. Right. They see the local, which is a well, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, talk, you know, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook

[46:00] Referral base, I believe is huge because it's your brand. That's who you are. And people trust in people before they, sometimes before I even second guess myself when I would try to go and order something online just without getting a referral that somebody has an experience. Like I'm not going to be the first one to pull the trigger on something unless I got a referral. Well, something that I actually learned recently.

[46:28] that really was insightful to me was, you know, people, another nomenclature thing that people talk about is reviews, right? Okay, they have good reviews, good reviews, good reviews. And I used to believe that that was a big thing until I started looking, you know, around and going, this company has like 3000 reviews, like this construction company has

[46:56] 200 reviews here, a few hundred reviews ago. This crazy. Like how long have they been in business that they can have this ordinary reviews? I mean, to be quite honest, it's not something that we focus a lot on because we're so focused on doing working and dealing with customers that the back end review kind of just falls off the table. But I got a thing the other day and it was actually a guy telling, trying to sell me reviews.

[47:24] And he was saying that, you know, he can give me these reviews and they'd be time stamped for the area and they'd be tied to real profiles. And I kind of knew that that was the thing, you know, because you hear about certain things. But that's the problem is that now you can't even rely on reviews. And we've had customers that we've worked for who got burned by other contractors and they say, well, they have

[47:52] really good reviews. So unfortunately in this era of of technology, that doesn't mean anything anymore, because they're probably, you know, you don't you can't trust if they're real or not. Yeah. So so really, I think the only thing that you is all the things that you said is local community based stuff, personal recommendations, asking for a recommendation, see people in somebody that

[48:20] that works inside your community. But also longevity. If a business has only been around in five years, who cares that they have 305 star reviews? I'd rather go with a business that's been around for 60 years that has less reviews because maintaining longevity is a lot harder than getting reviews. So well, yeah, and that's what I was going to actually add on that because we didn't even get into Marcos's

[48:48] background or history, but just real fast without going too too deep down that. How did you get involved with us and what what did that kind of look like? And the reason I bring it up is because it's an outside perspective of what our company is kind of about. Okay. What do I start? So we we've known each other for quite some time. So since maybe

[49:16] Mario met, I would say 2002, 2003. Right. I was in, we were doing, we were in cable. We're working, we work together. Yeah. So. And then, and then the reason I asked that is kind of like that referral or whatever. And then when Marcus and I started talking about when you were, when I was telling you about how busy we were.

[49:44] and all this sort of stuff. And I was saying, dude, you should come work with us. – Oh yeah, oh yeah. I've come from the banking background. I work with Mario for quite some time and the business side of things. And I was in banking for about 22, 23 years and I felt like I needed to make a move. And he presented an opportunity and I trusted him. I trusted his family.

[50:12] known you guys for quite some time. So you walked away from from a career to come. I walked away from a career. Yeah. That that was a good career that I felt that even at my age, I felt like most people won't take that risk. And I believed in you guys that much that I risked my career on. I believed in you guys. Because because I mean, honestly, your father

[50:40] has built such a reputation and done so much for the community over the years that it's something that I trusted. It was a brand. It means a lot to me to represent that and try to represent it well for you guys. – Well, even you were a little worried. – I was a little bit scared. – You asked me a few times, "Dude, are you sure?" "Are you sure?" "Are you sure?" "Yeah." "All right." But then once you got (buzzer buzzes)

[51:08] your feet wet and you got a better idea. You know now what you didn't know then because you feel so many phone calls of the reputation, correct? Correct. So now you understand the reputation and you know because you talk to so many people are like, "Oh no, I've known the family forever. My grandmother, I mean, just recently we just did that one where the grandmother had been a

[51:36] of my dad's for years, right? And so like, like our family has done work with their family for like 60 plus years, right? – Yeah. – And that was part of what you got to see. – Oh yeah. – And you get to see the behind the scenes because you get to see the way that everything works, right? – Yeah. – And that like we do take all the stuff very seriously. There's a reason why we have the name brand that we have and the culture that we have is because this is what we do. – And it just (buzzer buzzes)

[52:04] going to transcend generations. I mean, your dad's made an impact on your family, you, you boys, the three, three of you, and how you're going to carry the legacy on. Well, and just continue just making it better for the community. And I think the, you know, and I appreciate that. That's really nice for you to say. Um, only you get paid to say that, right? Right. But I think the other thing.

[52:32] The other thing is that you coming from a non-construction background is really good too because like we said, your job is basically Director of Customer Experience. Because you were in a banking field where you dealt with a lot of customers. So I think what you've brought to the company is something that we couldn't even have done internally. And it would be hard to find somebody with a

[53:00] construction background that could is that because you came from a non construction background, we and basically learned it from the ground up through a lot of trial and error too, is that you now have that you can empathize a lot with a customer. We're us. Everything's like second nature to us. We obviously don't mind answering questions, but you can understand more.

[53:28] where customers are coming from. So they connect with you a lot more because they, you just have that kind of, that rapport with them. I think I've developed it over the years because another aspect of the, of what they're going through is the finance part. And that's a language I understand. And they, they go to work, spend hours and hours to earn this money to spend it.

[53:56] and they could choose wherever they want to spend it and they spend it with you. So I sit back and I listen to every single thing that they're saying 'cause it matters. And that's what I just basically try to do and try to convey as much as I can. So when you do the walkthrough, I take that information, you do the walkthrough and we try to follow through it. – But I think that's the other big thing that people really respect.

[54:24] and gravitate to is that we're not salespeople. You're not a salesperson, Marzana. I mean, you're in sales. That's what you guys do. – Right. – But we don't have these slick pitches or if you do this, you're gonna get this break or I can, if you sign now, we can start tomorrow and we'll give you this discount because all this kind of stuff. – Yeah. – We don't have that kind of mentality.

[54:52] And so, you know, I think it's very rare that a construction company even has a position that's called Director of Customer Experience. I appreciate it. Because it's something that most construction firms don't focus on. They focus on production, they focus on sales, they focus on finances or whatever. And customer experience tends to be kind of an outsized thing.

[55:20] until they, at the end, when they go and ask them for review. But going just to kind of get back on track a little bit, because again, I want these things to be educational, is the estimate is probably the biggest tripping hazard that you can, that you have to watch out for. And it's the thing that you have to know the most about.

[55:48] First of all, everything that we talked about as far as red flags and things like that, you usually get instinct. And another thing we say is we have to always work together. So if we, if we don't get along and, or you have a bad report with us or we have a bad report with you or, and we just don't feel like, like things are driving, that it's okay. That's, that's, you know, that sometimes happened. We're not going to get along with everybody. So, you know, I had a conversation with the customer today.

[56:16] who wanted, you know, he basically said, well, to the conversation I had before about wanting a ballpark figure, and then I gave him the numbers and he goes, well, I still don't have clarity on what the engineering is, what's the permit, what is the finished fixtures, what is, you know, all these other variables. And I said to him, I can't give you those numbers.

[56:44] because you haven't given me enough clarity to give you the given idea. – Because we haven't done the process. – Yeah, right. And his point was is that, well, I know you guys have a certain way of working and I do too, and that's fine. So we basically said, well, you know, it's probably better if we just move on from this point. And that's okay. And because the thing is, I'm not gonna change his mind. He's not gonna change my mind. And if we try to keep, try.

[57:12] trying to slam a round peg into a square hole is just going to get frustrating. So it's better that he moves on, find something that will work with him and I wish him good luck. But the truth is I don't think he's going to have a good experience now because the reason why is he wants to control the whole narrative and understand and that's totally fine. Customers need to feel a sense of control. The problem is they don't want to relinquish enough control to the professionals. And so when they

[57:40] try to say, well, do it like this and why don't you do it like this and I need this and if you don't do it my way, it causes too much tension. And I've said this before in a jokingly manner, but you start off as a contractor and then become a marriage therapist. You become a financial counselor. You become a financial counselor.

[58:08] their priests do you be you know all these different things because you're you're you're you're talking about an Experience that you're spending day in and day out with these people You're having all conversations about money timeline family, you know, they're their dog. Gucks it there their kids got married Whatever's happening especially when the projects are going if you have a project that's gonna take about a year right year

[58:36] getting to know these clients really, really well. And at the end of the process, we're almost family at the end of it all, because you know them so well. And that's where you get to know how each of them operate. – Perfect example, you're the caretaker for the animal of one of our clients right now. (buzzer buzzes)

[59:04] Yeah. You're your your max is temporary owner right now. Oh, yeah. Max the cat. So we have a we have a homeowner who were doing a major home remodel for who basically had to move out of the house because it's a it's a down the studs got got, you know, with addition this with addition. So and his cat wasn't he wasn't able to take it to where he was was staying. So basically, now the cat lives in Marcos's office.

[59:32] office. We will put it. We'll throw the picture of the cat up. Max, Max, the 20 year old, 20 year old cat. But you know, the point of it is, is that going back to the the the estimate thing, the takeoff thing is is when I when I say to a homeowner, and I just had this conversation, another conversation where the customer says, well, you know,

[60:00] the other bid that I got is 20,000. It's 20,000. So less than than ours for a kids' room model. So of course, I'm not going to say, well, that guy is an idiot. He doesn't know what he's talking about, which is, you know, probably if I wanted to be honest, I would say that's the case. Because, but I have to explain like our process, how we get to these numbers. So I said, you know, I said, to, for example, it was an estimate like this. I said, look at the S.

[60:28] the guy gave you. Does it break out all the material? Does it break out all the labor? Does it give you a clear timeline? Is he, is he, are you going to have design help along the way? Um, you know, all these things. So $20,000 is not something the bocat. First of all, $20,000 is a lot of money. I'm not, I'm not a dense person. I understand that. But the point of it is that that number can persuade you to

[60:56] To get into a bad relationship because of that promise of you saving that amount which typically I would say more times than not leads to a bad outcome because that money Is it has to come out of somewhere right? It's not like hey And again, I like to use Equival and so if I'm a mechanic and I'm gonna pull your engine out and replace it and I say it's good. It's good, you know

[61:24] I've done this a thousand times and it's and here's all the parts and here's the labor hours and it's gonna be this much and some guy comes along and says well I can do it for half that price. Well, where is that? How is that? How does achievable exactly it doesn't it's not? You're not gonna do the same quality work and and and that's not me just saying that like I said This is a documented formula that you can follow and see basically it's like when you did math a math problem

[61:52] in high school and the teacher said, "You need to write it out so I can follow you." – Show your work. – This is showing the work. When you give me a piece of paper that says, "Oh, demo, I'm gonna demo your kitchen, I'm gonna put it in cabinets, I'm gonna take out the floor and put it for $45,000." Okay? So you gave me two pages that basically say what you're gonna do and then a number. How did you get to that number? And the truth is,

[62:20] It's a BS number. It's all beat that number. I just got it the other day. After an estimate, the customer told me, "Well, I told the guy about your guy's number and told him exactly what it was." And he said, "I'll beat their number." And I go, "Well, that's just…" I mean, she goes, "Yeah, I didn't like that." He said that. I go, "Well, you're smart. You shouldn't like that." And they said that. Because that's such a desperate thing.

[62:48] that like you don't want to get in business with somebody in desperation and a basically Says to them that their number is meaningless if they can change it like that. Yeah, it's not based on that's not based on any so there was a Business coach that I was watching I forget his name, but he's basically and it was really eye-opening to be quite honest. He goes around he goes in it's a room full of Business professionals eight Vak flooring whatever, you know, and he's helping him

[63:16] You know get better sales or whatever he goes tell me why why I should choose you and so that somebody says well It's because we do a really good job and you and you can count on us and we take pride in our work Okay, great goes the next guy tell me why I should choose you same thing that goes to another guy tell me why I should choose you same thing Everybody's saying the same thing so he goes how am I supposed to differentiate between anybody you guys all promise me the same thing and that's

[63:44] was really eye opening because every contractor that walks in your door is going to tell you they're the best. Nobody's better than them. Everybody else is crooked. Don't trust anybody else but me. I'm the only one you should trust. Every contract is going to say that. So the point is the guys that don't have to say that are the ones that you should trust. Because the guys that tell you all this stuff, they're telling this.

[64:12] to you because they think that's what you want to hear. And so what I say is, I'm not going to tell you we're the best. I'm not going to tell you, you know, we can do the best, but that best outcome, we're going to be the cheapest or I'm going to be to everybody's prices. Well, I'm going to tell you is that we've been in business three times as long as most of these, these guys. So don't take my word on it. Take all the jobs that we've done historically. That's your, that's your evidence. That's your data. You know,

[64:40] Because I can say whatever I want, you know. Yeah, absolutely. I was going to put Marcus on a hot seat real fast. How do you like working at Mass Middle Construction? Now, be cautious with your answer. I enjoy it. I enjoy. Well, you haven't grown some gray hairs at the time. You're already great. I'm learning a lot.

[65:08] I feel like when I left banking, you're always gonna learn. It's a lifetime of learning. I could have stayed in banking and still learned, but it was less. I was learning less and less after 25 years in it. So now jumping in here, I'm learning so much. I'm learning about, not from the customer service side of it.

[65:36] I'm learning a lot from customers and their needs, but I'm learning a lot from what you go through, you go through as far as we surprise at the complexity of what it takes to do construction, like how many moving pieces and I different things that you have to know. I thought I had an idea. I knew that it was complex, but I didn't have an idea of how complex. So if I'm thinking when I came in here, if I could tell you an idea, I

[66:04] thought complex was maybe eight to 10 steps. The complexity I ran into was like 28 to 38. I would say like 28. Right. So there is and I thought there, which I do listen like I really empathize with the client thinking that

[66:32] a job could go faster and prior to coming and knowing the process of how long a job takes. Cause it's not just, it's like, I sit with the client, speak with the client, find out what their needs are, pass it on to Mario. Mario passes on to you. Then it goes to Mike and then the Travis, the building departments, other, the architect, the engineer, title 25.

[67:00] green sheets, everything. – Okay, there's a– – So there's so many players in making this get to move forward. – Yeah, a lot of layers. – A lot of layers to it, but I wouldn't change it for anything. I feel more confident every day that I come in and I'm just learning so much. – I think that's a good point that I don't think we've touched on much is the complexity. And I think that's one of the (buzzer buzzes)

[67:28] If there's things that shock people in building is that one is price and two is probably the complexity because I had a lady one time tell me, "Oh, why is it going to take so long?" You're just putting some sticks up. I mean, she literally says putting sticks up. So I have to understand that people don't understand

[67:56] and how to do it. When you do heart surgery, what's the big deal? You're taking the heart out and you're putting it back. But you gotta know all the steps through it. And obviously construction, I'm not gonna equate it to heart surgery. It's not that difficult. – Sometimes it's that difficult. – But the point of it is that there's 10,001 things that you have to do with every job is just that much a little bit different. And so I don't care (buzzer buzzes)

[68:24] If you've been in business as long, if you're 81 years old, like my dad hasn't been working since he was six, he still sees things every day that he hasn't seen before. That's because every job is complex, you know, a mechanic, when he works on a car, it's the same part, the same engine, he orders it out of the catalog. It's a repeatable process. There's no home that's cookie cutter. Every home is different. There's no schematic.

[68:52] – I noticed too that I've learned, I didn't know this prior to coming here was to add that complexity, you finally get in a groove, and then I believe if you can correct me if I'm wrong, every four years? – Two. – Every two years. – Or the city changes like the rules. – Codes. – Codes. – Codes. – So that adds another layer of complexity. – Right.

[69:20] years. So whatever you're building, it's just, you don't know what's going to change over the two years. But yeah, that, you know, just so. So the, the kind of wrap up this, this conversation, you know, it always surprises me because I come into these podcasts and I'm like, here's, here's my, here's the things I want to talk about. And we get

[69:48] on one conversation and it just like diverts. And then it's like, it's like a, it's like a tree branch. It goes here and then sprouts off, then there's another variant, another variant. It's like these, these timelines that just shoot off. And, and, and so it, even with all my experience, having these conversations always reminds me of how complex these things are. And, and I think that's important because like the conversation,

[70:16] I was having with the customer today. My job isn't this the guy that said basically he had his own way of doing it and it didn't match up with the way we wanted to do it. And I said, that's fine. You know, my job is not to not to sell you on a job. My job is to give you give you information. So, you know, let us know if we can if we can help you in the future, but you know, wish you good luck. But the point of it is, is that no matter how many conversations we have with home.

[70:44] homeowners, we're never going to be able to give them all the information that we have. And at some point in time, the homeowner just has to go, I trust you or I don't trust you. Yeah, three come to you. And so what I would say to people is, go with your gut. Again, we can present you with historical evidence, we can present you with a documented takeoff. We

[71:12] can present you with reviews and customer experience and and so all this stuff. At the end of the day, you have to have faith that we know what we're doing. Because if you don't, you're going to the process is going to be terrible because you're going to you're going to be questioning us every step of the way you have to trust. So with that said, this again, this is for educational purposes, but we also want to have fun and show you what the behind the scenes of construction is.

[71:40] like, I mean, we laugh, we joke, and we have stress, and we, there's times that we go, why are we even doing this for? And it's hard. But the thing is, we love what we do. And this podcast just gives us another avenue to add to that layer. But also we want it to be something that you can count as a consumer or a business owner, the trades go like, I identify with that conversation. Or hey, I learned something or about something.

[72:08] that I didn't know. And the ultimate process is we only can do so many jobs a year. You never, we're never going to be able to help every customer that we come across. But if we can give you some kind of education that you can empower yourself to make that right decision to find that person in your community that you can trust, then we've done our job. So with that being said, we'll see you on the next episode. Make sure you hammer that subscribe button. Hammer it. We'll call it hammer.

[72:36] Everybody says that smash it but because we're in construction we want you to have with that subscribe button so I'm Geno Mazamuto I'm Mario Mazamuto Marco Samadur you got take care everybody we'll see you on the next one. I think you'll win